Friday, September 18, 2009

Ah, this Question...

I have been thinking about a post these past few weeks, and as I was doing my daily duties a few days ago, this popped to my mind! I will give this question to anyone willing to answer and participate in a discussion perhaps. I have been having this question awake within my mind for some time already, and finally decided to ask what y'all think about it. I know that many people think differently on this topic, nevertheless, that is not the point, I'm just curious with what you think, and what is Biblical. Thus, for the actual question, "Once saved always saved?" What is your exact opinion and voice on this? I have an opinion, and know other Christians who think otherwise. Without further explanation, be free to voice your thoughts on this. It doesn't have to be directed to me, however, to everyone! I know many that are confused with this, because it is often heard differently when in the gather of believers, or in a congregation of a church.

60 comments:

Josh said...

Okay...I think that I know my answer, But I'm not quite ready to say. I should do a bit of study before I give my answer!

In Christ Alone,
Josh

Maiden of Purity said...

Ok, I'll give you a little bit of time! ;p Nah, take all the time you want, however I'm just interested in what you come up with! Thanks...

Michelle said...

Hi Vanessa!

I'm getting ready to leave, but this question caught my attention, so I'll try to give a short answer now and maybe come back later. :) My dad and our family have done so much research and seeking the Lord on this question, and there are so very many scriptures to debunk "once saved always saved". Many people who do not understand truly what we believe, seem to think that *we* think that we are saved one minute and not the next; which is a misconstrued theory of what we really do believe.

I believe God never walks away from us, BUT we can walk away from Him. He's always there with His arms open wide for us. But I have seen it where people once saved (had the fruits of being a Christian) have hardened their hearts so much and are now living in complete sin. Just one out of many, many verses, is Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and **I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,** but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." So, if we were once saved always saved or "picked", why did God say He would blot out our name from the Book of Life? That means our name was ONCE in the Book of Life, but, COULD be blotted out if we are not abiding in Him.

Also, in John (I believe chapter 15) it talks about the branch bearing no fruit and will be cast out and thrown into the lake of fire. It obviously was once attached to the Vine (Christ) but the fruit (us) started to whither away and became dead and was then cast into the lake of fire.

Anyway, I have many other scriptures and history of how "once saved always saved" came about, but I'm about to leave, so if anyone would like anymore scripture and history of the background of this, I would be happy to type it out when I can. :)

~Michelle

P.S. Here is a website with some helpful information concerning once saved always saved. http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/

T.J. said...

I have heard that you can't be "un-saved," but have read in the Bible that you CAN be turned over to a "reprobate mind."
Romans 1:28 (King James Version)

"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind...."

Isaiah 49:16
"Behold, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands;
your walls are continually before me."

I believe you can't be un-saved, but you can lose faith.

Lydia said...

I am the daughter of a pastor and through his study he believes in "once saved always saved" but doesn't like that term.
Our family believes strongly in reformed theology, the term comes from the Protestant reformation. Simply put, the sinner in and by himself/herself can't choose God over our sin. We always choose evil when given the choice and God must punish sin. We are doomed but in God's mercy He chooses to save some for His glory. If He has chosen us how can we loose our salvation. that is a scary thought.
humans can be swayed. some come in and through emotions profess Christ but then decide they don't like it, or get bored and leave. As the New Testament say, "If they go out from us they are where not among us."
All true believes do not leave the faith. They may falter, they may fall, but God doesn't look down from heaven and say, "Well fine, your not saved anymore, Your no longer good enough." and kick us from His hand.
It is sad when a believer falls from the path of righteousness but I believe that true believes will strive to serve God every day. If they don't they didn't loose their salvation, but they are in great sin and as God's child that is a scary thing. God punishes His children when they sin.
BUt for those who love Him and are called to HIm can rejoice in salvation and never fear loosing it when they mess up but repent and move on in holiness.

Anonymous said...

Michelle,

I'm interested in knowing more...more scriptures..more history...more info!

Thanks,

Carrie

Anonymous said...

Maiden,

This is a huge can of worms with many people that can't deal with the fact that other people have different beliefs than they (even if the beliefs that that person holds are wrong). I would advise extream caution with everythin said, especially if you know the people who comment on your blog.

You can ask people what they think all you want, but it is your job to search the scriptures and find out for yourself what the Bible says about things.

Elizabeth T.

Southern Maiden said...

I really like the verses T.J. put in. But I have a question myself.

How many times did Jesus die?

Once. Only once. Once for all to die for man.

And I have a few verses as well:

"Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." 1 John 4:10

OK, 'propitiation' means 'a reconciling; to appease, or conciliate'. Jesus paid sin's price that we owed - He appeased the debt. How many times must a debt be paid? Once. One debt - one payment. And Jesus paid it in full. He went through with it ALL. He paid the whole price. He was the propitiation.

"For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things." 1 John 3:20

This is the verse that helped me when I was doubting. And, Lord, forgive me - for I should never doubt Your salvation. It meant I doubted Your love!

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38, 39

Daniel Turack said...

Wow quite the discussion! I'll have to get back to ya'll with my thoughts.
Daniel Turack

Daniel Turack said...

Actually on second thought I'll do a blog post on the subject.
Daniel

T.J. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michelle said...

Carrie, sure! I've been meaning to type it all up, (the history, scriptures, etc.) but haven't had any time lately! But I definitely will as soon I'm able. :) Hopefully this week...

Adam said...

Be back in a few, I need to do some study before i give my answer
i need some verse's to back me up I know my answer though

The Lord is my strenth
in Him i stand strong,
Adam

Eddie said...

Hello Vanessa
I just found your blog and like what I see. I especially like this most recent post. There’s only one thing I like better than theology and that’s discussing it. Well I’ll be up front and say in regard to the phrase “Once Saved Always Saved” – AMEN. I’ll let you know now I’m a Calvinist. This is one of the five points of Calvinism. It’s the P in the acronym TULIP. “Perseverance of the Saint”. In a nutshell it basically says that all true Christians will endure to the end. They cannot lose their salvation. Please note that I gave the stipulation of true Christians. There have been many over the years who have made a profession and then gone back and said they were not saved. Jesus said “ All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” John 6:37. And also in John 10:27-30 “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.” If person “falls away” and never returns, then that proves they were never elect. I know that’s another touchy subject but that can wait till another time. But in regard to this subject I say that if you have been saved you will endure to the end.
In Christ
Eddie

Maiden of Purity said...

Well, it looks as if this has become quite a big talk! I haven't been on my blog as much these past few days, due to the lack of me keeping up with things! Nevertheless, I really appreciate how y'all are just stopping by and leaving many of your thoughts! I'm still waiting for some of you (Josh, Adam, and Michelle) to write out your thoughts! :)

Elizabeth T., thank you for taking your time to comment. I actually do have my opinion, and am only interested in hearing what others are thinking about this question. Yes, I do know that this question can bring up many other questions, however I'm just curious into what others are thinking.

Erica, you did lay out a lot of scripture, and yet you didn't fully answer the question, "Once saved always saved".

Again, thanks everyone for commenting! :) Even though I'm not commenting along with y'all, just keep it going! I'll catch up on things sooner or later!

TexasLady said...

I love the way Southern Maiden explained it, "How many times must a debt be paid? Once. One debt - one payment." And to Eddie, Amen is the word :)

The scripture says we are saved by grace not by works
(Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. )

So if WE in some way can lose our salvation by what WE do or don't do; Then it's by works we are saved, but look what Isaiah 64:6 has to say about our works:

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags…


Also, we would then be able to boast, wouldn't we? if it hinges on what we do.

The word says:
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."
Gal 3:11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Abide by all the things written in the Law, but we can’t, that’s why we need Jesus!

One more thought, eternal means without end or beginning. So if our eternal life ends in 5yrs because of backsliding into a life of sin, then it was not eternal life. But the Lord promises us eternal life, John 3:16 (for those who have accepted Christ as their savoir).
In Christ,
Marci

Adam said...

On second thought I'll do post on my blog.

One Texans View.
My URL aintperfectjustforgiven.blogspot.com

It will be up by friday.

Daniel Turack said...

Hey ya'll I posted my thoughts on my blog but I was curious what ya'll thought of these verses:
Heb 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
Just curious what you think.
BTW I already dealt with this verse on my blog post. I;m just curious to see how ya'll deal with it
In Christ,
Daniel Turack

PS. Vanessa I'm not sure you've stated your position. But I may have just missed it.

Anonymous said...

Daniel,

Can you be more specific? Well, there probably isn't anything to be specific about, what exactly do you mean? Thanks,

Timothy

Maiden of Purity said...

Hey Daniel,

I will get back with you on your thoughts. I'm busy today, but will more or likely have a chance tomorrow. Just wanted to let you know that I will give my two cents on it! :)

Vanessa

Daniel Turack said...

Timothy,
Check out my post on blog it makes more sense there.
Daniel

Michelle said...

First of all, I want you all to know I'm not a Calvinist, nor an Armenian, but I am a Jesus follower and this is what the Lord has shown me through reading and studying His word.

Many of you are quoting John 10:27-30 “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.”

Okay, first if all the Greek word used there for *follow* is a *continuous present* verb. ei. it is a continual action... not a one time thing. Jesus said how he can regognize his sheep: "they hear My voice.. they follow Me." I totally agree that no one or no thing can EVER pluck you out from the Lord's hand. However, YOU CAN " *turn away*. ( which means backslide in Greek.) You can't turn away from something if you were never there. So, since we CAN backslide/turn away as scripture says, that means, that we once were saved but we could also turn away if we continue to live in sin without repentance. Take a look at these verses:

Ezekiel 33:18
18 When the *righteous* turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall *die* because of it.
1 Timothy 4:1

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will *depart* (meaning they were once saved) from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

1 Timothy 5:12
Having damnation, because they have *cast off* their first faith.

2 Peter 3:17 "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye [speaking to Christians] also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness."

John 2:24-25 "See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—even eternal life." 1 John 2:24-25

Romans 8:12-13 "Therefore, brethren, [speaking to Christians] we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die [spiritually speaking - if not, backsliders would be dropping dead]: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

Romans 11:19-23 "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, *if* [conditional!] thou continue in his goodness [we have a responsibility]: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off [die spiritually]. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

James 5:19-20 "Brethren [speaking to Christians], if any of you do err from the truth [to err is to leave something you were once with], and one convert [to be saved again] him; 20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

Ezekiel 14:7-8
7 For anyone of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell in Israel, who *separates* (departs) himself from Me and sets up his idols in his heart and puts before him what causes him to stumble into iniquity, then comes to a prophet to inquire of him concerning Me, I the LORD will answer him by Myself. 8 I will set My face against that man and make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of My people. Then you shall know that I am the LORD.

(Cont. below)

Michelle said...

Ezekiel 18:24-32
24 “But when a *righteous man turns away* from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, *because of them he shall die.* 25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair? 30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord GOD. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn and live!”

Jeremiah 2:19
19 Your own wickedness will correct you, And your backslidings (turning away) will rebuke you. Know therefore and see that it is an evil and bitter thing That you have forsaken the LORD your God, And the fear of Me is not in you,” Says the Lord GOD of hosts.

Jeremiah 17:13 "O LORD, the hope of Israel, All who forsake You shall be ashamed. “ Those who *depart from Me* (again, meaning they once were attached) Shall be written in the earth, Because they have forsaken the LORD, The fountain of living waters.”

James 1:16 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. (Note: Brethren! Talking to Christians, it IS possible to be deceived!)

And not to forget there are so many other verses that talk about backsliding but I had to stop somewhere! :) Also, the verses I have in my comment above (Revelation 3:5 and John 15) are a couple of other verses that would debunk "once saved always saved" too.

And just to get this straight, I do believe there IS eternal security for the believer and those who are not living in continual sin without repentance and I do NOT believe that you are saved one day, and not the next (I believe the Lord will continue to pursue us, but the ultimate choice of whether we will heed the Voice, is ours); it is usually just small steps of compromise towards hardening our heart more and more to the point of separating ourselves from the Lord. That's why the Bible warns us of this all throughout His word that it IS possible to backslide!!

(Cont. below)

Michelle said...

Anyway, I know this comment is getting REALLY LONG! But some of you had asked for the history of how "once saved always saved" along with Predestination all came about. Here is a very brief history lesson. :)

It can be traced back to St. Augustine who also came up with some other twisted things such as: Purgatory, Baptismal Regeneration (St. Augustine assigned all unbaptized children dying of infancy to eternal damnation and also said that "infants regenerated by baptism apart from their faith.) and that only Catholics will inherit eternal life.

Okay, so that's just a FEW of Augustine's teachings that are not Biblical.

Yet, Calvin, took some of Augustine's teachings and taught them!!

"Augustine was wrong on baptism. He was wrong on philosophy. He was wrong on the 'sacraments' and the nature of the Lord's supper. He was also mistaken on the Millennium, hermeneutics, the Resurrection, and marriage: why would anyone think he would be right on his thoughts and interpretation of election, predestination, and eternal security?"

Anyway, I just want to encourage you all to read your Bible for yourself! Don't put Calvin, Reformed theology or any other man-made doctrine above the truth of the WHOLE COUNSEL of God's Word.
Anyway, those are my thoughts. :)

~Michelle

Maiden of Purity said...

Michelle, thank you for your very detailed comments! They were much appreciated and I know that it is very informative as well. I don't have very much time, due to the fact of my business, however I just wanted to thank you!

Daniel, I know that I said I would try to get an answer up today to your comment. However, I'm sorry, I'm running out of time, as this day is just slipping away from me! Nevertheless, I read your comment again and I am going to pray about these scriptures and God's wisdom (just as I always do), and then get back with you! Thanks for your patience! :)
Also, if anyone has anything to say concerning Daniel's comment, please go ahead and feel free to leave your thoughts!

In Christ,
Vanessa

Anonymous said...

Daniel,

Thanks, I read your post and really loved it! I see what you mean now, and totally understand where you're going with this. For me, those scriptures mean a whole lot. It comes across in my family and me personally that if we turn away from God it is impossible to come back to Him because of His wrath and also that God once had us in His hand and wants nothing to do with us. I see also that Christians who turn away from God perhaps have a hard time getting back to Him because of their past pride of falling away. Do you see where I'm going with this? This discussion here is getting quite big and a tad out of hand, just be careful to be accurate with your scripture passages Maiden of Purity.

Timothy

Southern Maiden said...

OK - sorry. (haha)

I not only believe, but know, what the Bible says - once saved always saved. Yes, I do believe that.

Southern Maiden said...

(about the previous comment...) I was answering Maiden of Purity's real question, "Do you believe in once saved always saved?"

Anyway, I think I'll do a post about this on my blog as some of you are doing as well. Nessa - you brought up a great discussion!

John Smith said...

I would like to bring up a point that no one here has even seemed to consider. Everyone seems all wrapped up in a man-centered approach to this issue. They have asked only the question, "Can a CHRISTIAN lose HIS salvation?" What would happen if you asked a God-centered approach to this isse? Instead of asking if a Christian can lose His salvation, what would happen to this whole argument if you asked this question: Can Jesus lose a Christian? Be careful how you answer. Young people, depending upon your answer, you may contradict Christ's own Words and doctrines of truth.

Praying that the Holy Spirit would reveal His truth,

Mr. Smith

Kalani said...
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Kalani said...
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Kalani said...

I do admit, I have struggled with this, because I have heard and read all the passages Michelle has written. It seems the "once saved always saved" would give allowance for everyone to have the attitude, "I'm saved so it doesn’t matter if I continue in sin, I'm still going to heaven."

Last year, I really gave some thought to this and prayer and the Lord confirmed to me the answer through this book "World's Greatest Question" by Mr.Gothard, where he covers this topic completely. He had the same exact conclusion I came to just through prayer and the word of God before I even read the book (even more amazing this book was given to me during the time of prayer!!)! I would really recommend buying it: http://store.iblp.org/products/WGQ/

I can’t cover in detail what Mr.Gothard writes because the book is packed in a box due to moving, but I will mention he states there is a lot of confusion because of not understanding we are made of a body, soul(which is made up of the mind, will, emotions), and spirit and our soul still needs conversion-Heb 12:1 for example. If you read the book you can have clear understanding and it's all backed with scripture.

Now I will mention what my dad taught me today: It is an absolute fact we are predestined and elected. Ephesians proves it in: 1:4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Now the question is: Did God randomly chose people He wanted to become saved(and so if they continue in sin it dosen't matter they will still go to heaven)? or Did He in His foreknowledge know who would receive Him and so they are the elected? "But there are some of you who do not believe .For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. (NASB) John 6:64" My Father and I believe the latter and we do believe in freewill. Otherwise how can we be judged for what we do?-
I conclude with Solomon:

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."-Ecc.12:13-14

( I could write in greater detail but it way late, and I have to go to sleep- so if my words don’t make sense you’ll know why ;)
Please Vanessa get and read the book by Mr.Gothard- it's really good!:)

One last thing: What is that commandment?

"And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."-Mk 12:31


“Hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments” (I John 2:3).

Kalani said...

Oh that was me deleting the 2 above, I felt I just needed to reword something. Sorry about that Vanessa.

Debi said...

"Once Saved, always saved" I read this post a week ago and have been thinking about it ever since. Here are my thoughts.

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV)

'In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.'

Sealed can mean either that the Holy Spirit protects and preserves Christians until they reach their inheritance, or that he "certifies" the authenticity of their acceptance by God as being genuine- they bear the "royal seal", the first interpretation seems best here, though both ideas are biblically true.

Now I'm going to use an example:

You are a daughter/son of your earthly father. No matter what you do you can't change that fact. If you, as a daughter, get married yes your last name changes but your mother and father will ALWAYS be your true parents no matter what! There blood still runs through you. You, as a son, will always have your father's last name. His blood ruins through you. That being said, if a person comes to Christ, truly, he cannot be taken or turn away from Him!

You may ask, what if he does turn away from Christ and brakes his commandments and just dishonors Him than is he not saved?

I would reply, than he wasn't a true Christian. He never really gave his heart to God. He may have said he did, but he truly didn't. Though he turned from God, God is still wanting him to come back, God didn't turn from him, he turned from God.

Thus, my belief is Once Saved, Always Saved. If you truly give your heart to God you cannot turn from it.

Moriah said...

Opps, the post above is actually mine. My mom's name is Debi and she was signed in when I saved it so it went in her name. Sorry!

Anonymous said...

There are many scriptures that have been posted here that have been totally ignored. I have found that those who have their mind made up, it makes no difference what the truth is. Those who believe in Reformed Theology or the likes of it, totally ignore other scriptures that disagree with that "doctrine".
All scripture or truth must agree together or it is not truth.

There is no way that this "theology" can be true, it is a partial truth because there are so many other scriptures that say just the opposite. If you truly believe that only certain people are chosen or not, then no matter how you look at it, there is no need to evangelize, because God has already chosen those that He wants. Also if God chooses then how do you know that you were chosen. You can say that I have said the I have made a commitment to the Lord and read my Bible daily and even pray daily, but you have no assurance that you were chosen.

The same is true with once saved always saved. There are too many scriptures that you have to throw under the "bus" to make this partial truth a complete truth.

READ YOUR BIBLE YOURSELF FROM COVER TO COVER TO SEE IF THE THINGS THAT YOU ARE BEING TAUGHT ARE TRUE. TAKE NO MAN'S OPINION OF SCRIPTURES THAT DO NOT LINE UP WITH OTHERS IN THE BIBLE.

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John Smith said...

Anonymous,
There are many Scriptures indeed that have been totally ignored, and there are many Scriptures that have not even been mentioned that are relevant to this discussion. However, your reasoning is faulty. You say that there is no way that this theology can be true and that it is a partial truth contradicting the rest of Scripture. I’m sorry, but I’m not aware of any Scripture that says God is not sovereign; would you mind showing me the Biblical truth that God is not sovereign? Also, we know there are no contradictions in Scripture, otherwise all of God’s Word is invalidated. There are legitimate explanations of ALL these controversial passages of Scripture. Whether you believe them or not is not up to me; I am not responsible for changing man’s hearts. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. Following your own logic, I could say with just as much legitimacy that YOUR belief is only a partial truth as well because there are so many other Scriptures that say just the opposite of what you are proposing.

As I read the rest of your comment, I am much grieved. This deeply saddens me that you have bought into the lie that those who have a God-centered approach to evangelism would disregard the necessity for evangelism and outreach to the lost. Whether or not you believe that it is ultimately God who works in salvation should not and does not negate the call to every believer to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You have taken an extreme case on this issue and have used it to further justify your bias against those who believe that Jesus is Lord of ALL. If you would continue in this belief, let me point you to the great commission, which is the call to EVERY believer to make disciples of every nation. That does not give anyone, Calvinist or Arminian, an excuse to not evangelize. Also, 2 Timothy 2:10 says, “Therefore, I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.” Apparently Paul, one of the greatest missionaries in church history, was motivated by the fact that it God had elected, and it was for the sake of the elect that he endured, so they may come to faith in Christ. If you’re still hesitant to admit this, read Galatians 1:11-17 and see for yourself what Paul believe about himself and his own salvation.

May God’s peace and understanding be with you,

Mr. Smith

Anonymous said...

All I have to say is every time I get into any disagreement with many that believe this way, it seems that many become very prideful like they know it all in a very unloving way. God hates a prideful know all spirit. You know if you disagree with someone at least do it in a loving way, the way Christ would have us to react. I do not believe any of us holds the key to all truth. WHAT A POOR WITNESS YOU HAVE BEEN WITH YOUR KNOW IT ALL SPIRIT.

Anonymous said...

One last thought. The devil comes to divide and conquer especially the Church. It is time we all stop with all our differences and celebrate our agreements, and truly love one another as we are commanded.
1 Corinthians 13:1-6 (NKJV)
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;

ALL TRUTH CAN BE SUMMED UP IN THIS:
Matthew 22:36-40 (KJV)
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Michelle said...

1 John 4:20-21 says:
20If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

Eddie, your attitude and arrogance are so loud, I can barely hear what you are saying.
Even if you were right, you have come across in a very arrogant and hateful manner--which God hates.

I pray the Lord would reveal His truth to you, and that you would love others just as Christ has loved you and gave His life for you.

Before I leave this whole discussion, there are a few things I need to clarify.

One being that I mis-worded something. I said that the Greek meaning for "turn away" was backslide. I'm sorry but when I was doing my studying, I somehow typed the wrong thing.

The word "Backslide" in Greek means "Turn Away". Turn away is "a primitive root; to turn off (literal or figurative) :- be [-head], bring, call back, decline, depart, eschew, get [you], go (aside), × grievous, lay away (by), leave undone, be past, pluck away, put (away, down), rebel, remove (to and fro), revolt, × be sour, take (away, off), turn (aside, away, in), withdraw, be without.—Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary"

Second, your preposterous presumptions that I " just run to a website to get a killer list of verses" is incorrect. I'm sorry that you assumed that, but that is not what I did at all. I got my Bible, and I wrote in my little notebook all the verses I posted on here. The only copying and pasting done was from Bible Gateway so I wouldn't have to type up each individual verse. I also did my own studying in Strongs Hebrew/Greek Dictionary.

Furthermore, I had never *heard* of Areminianism before last year. These are the conclusions I have come to strictly from reading my Bible.

Thirdly, in reference to John 15, you said: "And only the branches that don’t bear fruit are cast out. Therefore if you are a Christian Christ will cause you to bring forth fruit and you can never lose your salvation." It seems you're forgetting, that in order to be a branch, it MUST be connected to the Vine. (Christ) Branches do not grow of their own accord. If you can find a farmer who says otherwise, I would really like to meet him. :)

Also, don't forget the parable about the seeds that fell on rocky soil.
Matthew 13:22 (KJV)
"He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful." They grew, and then they died. NOTHING can grow unless it first grows roots.

Michelle said...

We should also remember the biblical story of David. David was certainly a follower of God pre-Bathsheba. But yet, we know that according to Gal. 5:19-21, that they who commit adultery "shall not inherit the Kingdom of God." Yet, we also know that when confronted by Nathan, David repented (Ps. 51) and was later called "a man after God's own heart."

We should also look to the examples of Peter and Judas. Both men turned away from Christ, but while Judas died in his unrepentant sins, Peter repented and was later who God used to reach the Gentiles.

And about Augustine you said: "Now of course lets not mention that he also believed that Jesus was God, and that He came to earth, died was buried and rose again." Did you know that some Muslims also believe that?

Kalini, I have never read that book by Mr. Gothard, but I really liked your comment and agree with with you and your dad--that we have a free will. :) BTW, thank you for the comment on my blog--I will be replying soon!

Also have any of you read this? http://www.clp.org/documents/2429/original/Calvinism_Arminianism_Which.pdf

I would recommend everyone read it, as it explains all of this very well.

I think I have stated my position clearly enough here, so I most likely will be exiting this conversation.

I pray we may all grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Blessings,
~Michelle

Maiden of Purity said...

Everyone,

Sorry, I have not been on my blog as much, due to my crazy schedule, nevertheless, I do appreciate y'all's comments. However, I have no problem with y'all commenting, the only problem that I battle against is when you begin to get harsh and rude with your conduct and speech. This is afterall just a discussion which can be done in love and respect. If someone disagrees with you, accept that fact knowing that you cannot convince him/her, but rather the spirit of God. Please keep this in mind to not exaggerate in your actions and not to cause others to get angry. Be pure and blameless in all speech, knowing that we all are children of God, encouraging one another, and not pushing the other one down. My intentions with asking this question was just to hear your opinion, to not take any sides, and most of all, to not begin a disagreement and blaming someone else, or accusing others. As I have mentioned before, I have my opinion, and searching the scriptures as many of you have stated, is what I did. Thank you, and God bless!

In His Service,
Vanessa

P.S. Please not that more commenting to what you desire is welcomed, with proper actions!

Joshua said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
T.J. said...

I never said that everyone believes the same; I DID say that (at the time) that it SEEMED. I also hate the labels or "religions." they seem to do more harm than good...
If I had to tell what religion I was, I would say that I am a "Probacalptist." lol

Chet Jelinski said...

I'm new here, but Joshua speaks for me, Eddie, in humbly calling you to repentance. As a Christian of 35 years who was saved under the ministry of the great Reformed Baptist preacher (now retired) Albert N. Martin, I think of his wise words that "public sins require public repentance". Everything Joshua said is correct and I would just add that you, as a man, forgot that Michelle, a woman, is a "weaker vessel" according to Scripture and should've been treated with MUCH more gentleness and respect by you.

May the Lord enable you to take Joshua's words to heart!!

Daniel Turack said...

Hello Everyone wow Eddie I must agree with everyone else that you went a little over board on your comments. You had some excellent points to consider but the way you went about it was totally wrong. Please seriously consider your actions.

Eddie said...

Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
I must humbly ask ya'll's forgiveness for my recent posts. I have a tendancy to just start writing without thinking closely about what I am saying. And if you hav'nt noticed I have a problem with sarcasm. Michelle I must specifically ask your forgiveness. I see now that the way I treated you was definantly not Christlike. I visited Daniel's blog and saw your heart there. That your intent was not for this to be a subject for division. Again everyone I am sorry. Thanks guys for your exhortations.
In Christ,
Eddie

Michelle said...

Eddie,

I forgive you. Thank you for your very humble and kind apology.

I'm glad you were able to see my heart that I didn't want this all to become a divisive issue between brothers and sisters in Christ.

Thanks again Eddie, for your apology.

Blessings to you all!
~Michelle

TexasLady said...

Everybody, wow what a beautiful picture of the church (the body of Christ) I've just seen in the last 6 or so comments, the way it should be.
Praise The Lord!!

Marci

Maiden of Purity said...

Eddie,

I really appreciate the fact of how you humbled yourself and came to the point of recognizing your prideful spirit! I am thankful that you have acknowledged this yourself and apologized to Michelle to make this right once again.

Everyone,
Just as a side note, I'll be posting up my opinion about this whole discussion on "Once Saved Always Saved" shortly, because someone did ask me what my belief was! Anyways, please make this discussion somewhat lively and kind, and if you have anything else to comment about, do so!

In Christ,
Vanessa

P.S. Thanks to the ones who kindly reproved Eddie, we as Christians and brother's and sister's in Christ need to encourage, and also correct each other in love! Thank you.

Daniel Turack said...

Michelle asked us to read the article that she gave the link for in one of her previous comments. So I went and read that article and I must say I was very disappointed. I had hoped it would be an unbiased comparison of Calvinisum and Arminianisum and the various verses supporting/refuting each belief. However it was an article obviously written by an Armenian putting forth all the problems he found with Calvinisum. I should not have been surprised however for I don’t know of anyone who could give an unbiased comparison.:) However that being said I would advise those who are serious in this debate to go and read the article for it gives a very good representation of the Arminian view. I haven’t yet but I am considering doing a search on the internet for an article like this only from a Calvinist’s point of view. But I’m also considering just doing one myself. I would both attempt to refute the arguments given against Calvinisum and summarize the arguments against Arminianisum. However I doubt that I would have the time or even the skill to do it. We’ll just have to see. Now I want to say again that in my posts I am in no way condemning the people who believe in this view. I believe we can all continue to fellowship as believers even though we differ.
God Bless,
Daniel Turack

Maiden of Purity said...

Thus, finally my time has come for me to pin point my opinion about this whole discussion and talk! I have thought, prayed, and searched the scriptures for about 3 weeks for my complete answer. For awhile I was actually confused about this whole thing, not knowing which was the right thing to belief, because as we do know, there are a few scriptures which are sort of contrary, nevertheless, when you get to the bottom and history of the verse that is when you fully begin to understand what is being stated.

Therefore, when it comes to this question I stand with the thought and opinion of believing "Once saved always saved", I have not always thought like this, although. You see, I have come to this conclusion because of what I have founded. I also have talked a good deal about this with my mom and really see that God has chosen us, and just as Southern Maiden stated, Jesus died just once, and our sins are forgiven. You see, this could go on and on, as we have experienced here. It comes to the point that a Christian is a follower of Christ, and if we truly are following Christ we do not desire to do sin and the evil doings of this world. Yes, temptations do arise many times throughout our Christian walk, however, it will determine if we are very serious about this, and if so we will flee away from the sinful life. Basically, a man or woman who accepted Christ within his/her heart and than fell off the deep end doing all of the wicked and sinful actions which the Bible commands us not to do, I see that that person will not go to heaven and that his/her salvation was never real, but rather something done out of emotions etc. Also, none of us can determine nor judge the salvation of others, that is not our place to do so. It is a very touchy subject to discuss and I have acknowledged this after the many comments I have had. Now, if we have the same situation with a man/woman accpeting Christ, and they really did experience God's spirit, and yet drifted and walked on sifting sand, and do many evil works, however, if they later on come back to God and realize that they are nothing, completely empty, and need God back in their life, than yes they will go to heaven because of the fact that they recommitted their lives to Christ. If we asked God into our hearts and continue to live a life of shame, guilt, and sin than no, I don't believe you will go to heaven, yes the Christian walk is an on going committment, wanting to change, and we grow throughout the years, although if we resist God's change in our life, than no, I don't believe #1 that you will go to heaven, and #2 that you actually accpeted Christ. Again, this is something I can't determine, that is between the person and God. I'm just stating the fact that we are all sinners, and by the grace and blood of Christ we are saved and renewed by His unending love and the hope He gives is undescribable. All in all, once saved always saved is what I believe, however, to a certain extent, meaning that, if you truly are saved than you will not want to fall away, and that loving and living for God is all you desire. Giving yourself to God is something very precious, and if we leave His presence, than I personally believe that no we will not go to heaven, because we are covered in unrepented sins and will not be welcomed in the pearly gates, BUT casted into hell. Harsh as it sounds, however, how can we be welcomed in heaven, after being sinful in our hearts, perhaps saying that we did pray that prayer, and yet never experienced convictions etc. If you have further questions or want to perhaps discuss this further with me feel free to email me @nessa15.@gmail.com, or you can comment here!

God bless,
Vanessa

Sablesue : D said...

Here is my view on the subject "once saved always saved". When a person is truly saved they believe the gospel, see their sins, confess them, and then repent from their sins and turn to God. They put off the old self and put on the new self. So if God decides, by His sovereign grace, to save someone they are His children. And once you are a child of God you can't become not a child of God. But to become a child of God there must be a real genuine heart change just because you may have said a prayer or walked down the aisle one day at church does not mean you are a true child of God. If you have not been convicted of your sin and repented of them and there has not been a true heart change then I would say that you were not a christian because the bible says that that is how we come to know Christ. So if you are truly a child of God then yes you will always be His child.
My Mom helped me find these verses.
John 10:27-30
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Ephesians Chapters 1 and 2 would also be great passages to help clear this up also.

Thankyou very much for letting me comment on this. I hope it will help clear things up on this subject.
-Sable

Daniel Turack said...

Excellent post Sable especially for a 13 year old. :) Good grasp of the subject. I saw your blogs and especially liked the one about different composers. Excellent work.
In Christ,
Daniel

Adelphay said...

I'm a good friend of Sable's and I agree with her. I prefer using the phrase though, "once changed always changed." This is important because there are many people who claim to be Christians and act complete adverse to the Scripture (think of some people in popular culture). But I believe that when a person is truly born again they receive a new heart of flesh in replacement of their old stony heart, and they are made into a new creature. This is truly a beautiful picture to me, of Justification and then Sanctification, how God forgives us and makes us right with Him and how throughout the rest of our life He make us more like Christ, and gradually we will sin less, until heaven, then no more sin at all. I can hardly wait. Can you? And, of course, there is the best part, being with our Lord and praising Him.
Laura